The Fair Tax?

[BushRocks]

This is an excellent idea for America! This would completely reset the country back to classical liberalism! (well almost)

I'll give you a little bit of quick information, and then you can go to the website.

The Fair Tax is gaining lots of momentum. It's policy includes:


Abolishes the IRS
Maintains current Social Security and Medicare benefits
Closes all tax loopholes and brings fairness to taxation
Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy
Allows American products to compete fairly
Reimburses the tax on purchases of basic necessities
Enables retirees to keep their entire pension
Enables workers to keep their entire paycheck


Here are the details (www.fairtax.org)

This is quite possibly.....awesome.

[Dagummit]

Social Sec. has to go too....

[Peace_by_superior _power]

good ideas BR but in case you didnt know money talks so that will never happen with fair taxes.

[Dr. Madd]

I dunno. We keep the law in the open, and if our representatives don't sign it, we campaign furiously to VOTE THEM OUT!

[All American Kid]

I'm a big supporter of H.R. 25. Texas and Florida use consumption taxes and are the 10th and 15th largest economies in the world. Independent Congressional Commitees have found that a consumption tax based system will incease the economy by 10.5% and exports by 26%. The FairTax book is now in paperback and relatively cheap, heck go to the libary and check it out, it is a fairly easy read.


Hmmmmmmm......I dunno. Usually I'm automatically leery at anything called liberalism. I think I'll have to read this one carefully before i say yea.

I wouldn't worry too much, Tom Delay supported H.R. 25.

[Oi_Ve]

Consumption tax all the way! Good to see others are starting to pick up on this one.

[Dr. Madd]

I think one more thing should be added. What if the States starting paying their own senate and their own congress and could be recalled by their legislatures?

[Peace_by_superior _power]

i dont like taxes. wasnt this country founded as means to get away from taxes?

[FKLBRLS]

I see where you're going PBSP. This country was founded to get away from unnecessary and completely stupid taxes, taxes which we had no vote in their implementation. To have some kind of tax system is merely funding the government, but to tax tea, paper, the number of windows on your house, etc. (stuff the Brits all taxed) is just plain bull.

This Fair Tax thing sounds like a good idea. Two questions: is it a form of Flat Tax? And what do we say to liberals who say "It is an undeniable tax cut for the rich to shift the burden to the poor and make them suffer"? I know this is coming, and they must be shut up. The tax system needs to be revised, plain and simple.

[All American Kid]

I think the founding fathers understood that government needed to be funded by taxes. The phrase “no taxation without representation” seems to reinforce that, but we should see some service in return (not the king’s purse getting fatter).

[Undivided_Attention]

The tax system needs to be revised, plain and simple.

It needs to be more than revised or reformed. We must really cut the federal government, by at least 2/3rds and give MUCH more power to the states. I believe this consumption tax will work, but what about the National Economic Stabalization and Recovery Act (NESARA)? WOuldn't that work? Or what abotu a regressive tax? Give an incentive for those who don't get off of their lazy asses to get out there and do some work? (ANd, for those who are on welfare, void their right to vote. No taxation without representation, no representation without taxation). Or maybe a value added tax? I don't know, just get rid of the progressive sales tax and get the goddam government back in line with the COnstitution, that's all I'm asking for.

EDIT: Progressive tax, not progressive sales tax. Whoops.

[Oi_Ve]

This Fair Tax thing sounds like a good idea. Two questions: is it a form of Flat Tax? And what do we say to liberals who say "It is an undeniable tax cut for the rich to shift the burden to the poor and make them suffer"? I know this is coming, and they must be shut up. The tax system needs to be revised, plain and simple.

The "Fair Tax" is a national sales tax on all new products, starting at a rate of 23%. The tax also calls for the end to all other federal taxes of any form, including income tax. So no, it is not a "flat tax": in fact, it stands as a fairly starck contrast to the "Flat Tax".
In order to combat liberal B.S. about a national sales tax, you should bring up this point...

-as is, people pay roughly 34% of their paycheck in tax of some form.

-all taxes on businesses trickle down to the consumer in some way; consumers pay 100% of the tax burden in this nation.

-althought the price jump, 23%, seems very high, in fact prices go down. This is because people are now paying LESS tax on the product than they were before. Also, companies can now make products cheaper, and that savings is passed onto you, the consumer.

-the rate of tax would decrease over time, eventually going down to 11%. This is because the decreased prices would encourage more spending, meaning the government is taking in more tax and can afford to decrease tax rates (instead of one large 23% chunk, you get it in several smaller chunks...get it?)

-under a national sales tax, families would recieve a check every month equal to a nationally calculated "necessities of life" sum. This is the basic amount you pay for food, water, and other necessities of life.

-the poor, in turn, would pay no tax in theory. Since they're poor, they probably can only afford to buy the necessities of life as is. Now, if they spend MORE than that, that's money out of their pocket.

-a national sales tax would be a tax on how people live their lives. If you have some rich business man who wants to buy 5 private jets, fine. He's going to pay more tax. Meanwhile, the business man who lives more conservatively will pay less tax. A tax on how you live: a "fair" tax.

-the tax only applies to new goods: used items purchased at yard sales or on ebay (or whatever the hell it is that you kids use these days) are not counted

Here are two good articles about the idea from the Cato Institute...

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-289.html

and

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-416es.html

[FKLBRLS]

Sounds good. I look forward to promoting it. Really it does sound like it will fix a lot of problems. And there is no way one can say it "benefits the rich" without being either ignorant or insanely stupid.

[BushRocks]

Oi Ve, could you elaborate a little more on the check that families would recieve each month? How does that work?

[All American Kid]

In a nutshell the rebate is a monthly check one gets to reimburse for taxes paid on necessities such as food shelter medical care etc.. This is based off of projected cost from your salary. A little extra bonus for the poor, all of your check and another rebate check a month

http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/smart/faq-main.html#3

Sorry O' I had to cut in.

[Wadi66]

Oi, do you endorse this, or are you just being informative?

There are a few things I wonder about.

1. What do they mean "new" products? Ah, things from ebay or garage sales are excluded. Hmmm, I don't pay tax on those now anyway.

2. We know that businesses have to raise prices to cover expenses but the only thing that forces a business to lower their prices are competition and excess inventory. The whole thing is predicated on businesses lowering their prices. Will the government step forward and force businesses to do that?

3. What if businesses don't?

4. Having less taxes to pay decreases the overhead for the business, but if people will theoretically have more money to spend more products are being purchased and so more products are required, where are they coming from? Are jobs being created to produce these products? The US has almost zero manufacturing (compared to consumption). Does this master plan suddenly call for manufacturing facilities to pop up across America creating jobs, or will the demand be too great, the cost of production (building facilities etc) too great, so we continue to look to our enemies to supply us our goodies? If we're re-building our manufacturing, businesses will have to cover expansion.

5. "the rate of tax would decrease over time, eventually going down to 11%." I have never known the government to keep a promise, have you? Some may promote "tax rebates" if we find we have more in our coffers, but is that before or after we pay off the current deficit of 46 Trillion dollars?

[Dagummit]

I would like to see less money going out of this country (aid, etc) and cutting the BS social programs...that would cure a lot of this tax shit.

[All American Kid]

Well again I'm not O' but I reckon I'll do until he wakes up from his nap.

1) Yes garage sales yard sales etc are protected. Taxes are done one time at retail, no double taxation here. Now if you are providing a service along with the resale of the product the service alone gets taxed.

2) Let me refer to the Airline industry in '96. At the end of '95 congress let an airline tax lapse. Congress left up to the airline's discretion to refund the tax, well they all couldn't refund the money back to the ticket holders fast enough. Likewise within the first month all airlines cut ticket prices by 10%.

3) You only need one business to cut prices whether it is a established one or one that is up starting. Look at how soon Ford and Chrysler offered the employee discount to consumers after Chevrolet did.

4) We're looking at a 10% overall economy growth starting out, I really think we can handle that you see companies double their size easily within a years. Also our competitors will be forced to build their manufacturing jobs here to remain competitive in prices.

5) As Boortz say's in the FairTax Book if we allow that to happen it's our own fault.

[Dagummit]

Shit...I say let's give this thing a try...anything is better than what we have now.

Also...what are the true odds that this thing will pass?

Is it a pipedream that the IRS will be shutdown?

[Dr. Madd]

I would like to see less money going out of this country (aid, etc) and cutting the BS social programs...that would cure a lot of this tax shit.

Teddy Roosevelt believed Congress and the Senate should have to account for every dime spent directly to the taxpayer.

[Dr. Madd]

Oh yeah, and offer tax breaks to gun owners!

[All American Kid]

Shit...I say let's give this thing a try...anything is better than what we have now.

Also...what are the true odds that this thing will pass?

Is it a pipedream that the IRS will be shutdown?

This is going to be hard to pass. The k-street lobbyist do no want this tax, they rely on complicated codes to manipulate to justify their wages. In talking to a lobbyist, I asked will H.R. 25 work. He said the exact same thing; it WILL work but WILL not pass due to the lobbying factor. That is unless we the voter make them. We need 31 congressmen/women to get this bill out of committee and on the floor for debate, then it will start getting some real attention and change can happen. E-mail your representative to show your support.
http://fairtaxgroups.com/index.php?topic=87.0

Oh I forgot to add :clap1: :clap1: :clap1: :thumbup1: :thumbup1: Most people prefer to throw their hands up in the air and merley state that "it'll never work".

[Oi_Ve]

Sorry O' I had to cut in.

No problem, you saved me some typing.

[SubJunk]

2. We know that businesses have to raise prices to cover expenses but the only thing that forces a business to lower their prices are competition and excess inventory. The whole thing is predicated on businesses lowering their prices. Will the government step forward and force businesses to do that?

3. What if businesses don't?
As AAK said, and you agree with (I assume because you acknowledge competition forces businesses to lower prices) it would only take one company for the others to follow.
Also there is a third thing that forces companies to lower prices and that's a lack of consumer demand. Of course this isn't true for essentials; if every supermarket in the country has high prices then everyone will have to just get used to those prices. But if Apple raises their prices too high, even if there isn't any competition around (hypothetically of course) people just wouldn't buy iPods or Macs. What I mean is there's no need for an alternative because it's purely unessential. I know this seems like a silly point to make, everyone knows that, but when you realise that the vast majority of companies provide non-essential goods it becomes a big factor.
If the businesses don't follow these simple economic guidelines they won't be businesses for long :icon_wink


4. Having less taxes to pay decreases the overhead for the business, but if people will theoretically have more money to spend more products are being purchased and so more products are required, where are they coming from? Are jobs being created to produce these products? The US has almost zero manufacturing (compared to consumption). Does this master plan suddenly call for manufacturing facilities to pop up across America creating jobs, or will the demand be too great, the cost of production (building facilities etc) too great, so we continue to look to our enemies to supply us our goodies? If we're re-building our manufacturing, businesses will have to cover expansion.
In comes the equilibrium, which as you probably know is something that economies always head toward "naturally" :icon_smil


5. "the rate of tax would decrease over time, eventually going down to 11%." I have never known the government to keep a promise, have you? Some may promote "tax rebates" if we find we have more in our coffers, but is that before or after we pay off the current deficit of 46 Trillion dollars?
During, I'd say. And really, America can be in as much deficit as it wants, who is going to say "pay up"? What will the ultimatum be? :icon_wink

[Dr. Madd]

I see where you're going PBSP. This country was founded to get away from unnecessary and completely stupid taxes, taxes which we had no vote in their implementation. To have some kind of tax system is merely funding the government, but to tax tea, paper, the number of windows on your house, etc. (stuff the Brits all taxed) is just plain bull.

This Fair Tax thing sounds like a good idea. Two questions: is it a form of Flat Tax? And what do we say to liberals who say "It is an undeniable tax cut for the rich to shift the burden to the poor and make them suffer"? I know this is coming, and they must be shut up. The tax system needs to be revised, plain and simple.

It should be a flat percentage tax. 10 percent across the board. 10 percent of 100 is 10, ten percent of 1000 is 100. Fair enough.