Intro to the most right wing minded person here...

[Argonath]

Didn't washinton say that political parties would rip the country apart?

[Oi_Ve]

Lib's are not intelligent, nor nice, and are the WRONG type of extremist. They are blood-sucking villains that want nothing more than complete government control (fascism) and complete ungodliness (Marxism).

ok, so conservative radicals dont exist? the KKK is a legitimate and good organization? people who bomb abortion clinics and kill people (not always abortionist either); Al Queda? it is a conservative organization (arab conservatives, but conservatist none the less). and again, liberals are the down graded form of communists, conservatives are fascist.
and I hate to tell you, but there's a hell of a lot more to liberal thinking than gay marriage, religion, and abortion. you're forgeting economics, foriegn policy, and more. in these issues, there often isnt a best solution, simply a different one. my father is a liberal, he votes democrat, he calls himself iberal...yeah, he's liberal. yet he believes in creationism. he's for non-tree hugging conservation (more wetlands, an issue thats been pushed by duck unlimited, cabelas, bass pro shops etc). he doesnt believe in gay marriage. yet his economic and foriegn policy beliefs often fall in line with democrats (and not the zell miller type, although more democrats should be like him, if only to get more votes). is he lacking in common sense? is he looking to make the nation godless? odd how a preacher would want to do that. he must be part of some grand liberal conspiracy....yeah that's it.....and I bet he wakes up every morning thinking 'Man I hate freedon' and as he eats his wheaties he thinks about how much he hates God.


Some lib's may be book smart, but lack the common sense to see that they are tearing this country apart from the inside out.
Actually, I am more in line with the founding fathers. I consider myself a Constitutionalist by political party. You really ought to read how Washington, Jefferson, Henry, and the like felt (by their writings) before you associate your leftist views to theirs. I guarantee you that they would have no part in democratic liberalism if they were alive today and would vomit at the very doctrine that lib's spout out.


And I guarentee you that they would rather see the country fall apart than see it 'come back to god'. it's better to die free than live oppressed. If people wish to destroy themselves, they have the right to do so. You're right, they wouldn't agree with whats happened to the country. neither do I. but they would admit that it's not their place to enforce christianity as they percieve it on people who dont wish to see it that way.
The American Sphinx. good book. pick it up if you haven't. I know what they wrote. I also know that jefferson, washington, and the like would call 'bringing the country back to god' a dangerous concept. who's god? who's interpertation of the bible, if the bible at all? if a mormon, a witness...hell let's go waaaay into left field and say shinto (always a fun word to say) were to take over the government, if the contry were to go their ideas of god, would you be satisfied?
please dont say no and base your answer on the arguement that they aren't right because you'll sit there and base your belief system on a mysterious all powerful being who's origin is a mystery to all, left no real clue to his existence, and when asked why He does things says the only reply you'll hear is 'He works in mysterious ways', and then turn around and call someone else's dogma idiotic or wrong?
N.B. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being faithful. I attend church every week of my life. I've read the bible numerous times. I believe in the christian god and in creationism. but the fact is that I also have to remember humilty and admit that all religions, even my own, are absurd at their core.


Signed,
Brian ***** (a.k.a Dagummit)
soon to be Ph.D. (all that is left is comps and dissertation)

congratulations. seriously, well done. good luck with that, I hope you succeed.

Signed,
Cole ***** (a.k.a. Oi_Ve)
Ph.D. Classical Studies

[Dagummit]

please dont say no and base your answer on the arguement that they aren't right because you'll sit there and base your belief system on a mysterious all powerful being who's origin is a mystery to all, left no real clue to his existence, and when asked why He does things says the only reply you'll hear is 'He works in mysterious ways', and then turn around and call someone else's dogma idiotic or wrong?
N.B. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being faithful. I attend church every week of my life. I've read the bible numerous times. I believe in the christian god and in creationism. but the fact is that I also have to remember humilty and admit that all religions, even my own, are absurd at their core.



Left no real clue to His existence? How about the bible? How about the gospels of the witnesses who saw Jesus walking around three days after He died on the cross?

Buddy, I am not going to argue with you since you seem to be firm in your ways, I can only say to open your heart up to the message.

I know that you will call me a Zionist or something of that nature, but the whole "freedom of religion" and "seperation of church and state" that the left uses today is not what the forefathers intended it to be. They came from England, where the Church of England controlled everything. If you weren't a member of the church, then you didn't have the respectible jobs, etc. The early pioneers of this nation seen that it was too oppresive and needed a way out. Washington, etc. furthered carried that point to seperation from England's rule and the right to worship God how they seen fit. And to further protect religion from the gov't, not gov't from religion.

Anyways, I am getting tired...this could go on and on and on. Thanks for the compliment on my doctorate travels.

[Oi_Ve]

A religious text does not qualify as proof, because by the very nature of it, it is biased. The Bible was written by man. You can say it is God's word, but doing so creates a logical falacy. Eg.

"How do you know god exists?"
"Because the Bible says so."
"How do you know it's right?"
"Because God wrote it."

and you did not answer my original question.
Also, I'm aware that there is nothing about the seperation of church and state. however, you'e wrong when you said it was to protect religion from government. while it is true, that was one point, it wasn't the only point. having lived in the age that they did, our Founding Fathers were indeed well versed in history, especially classical history. They knew full well the power of religion and how it had been misused throughout time. The Crusades. The Roman assault of Jerusalem, etc.
They knew that a particular religion becoming an integral part of the government would make it very easy for someone to abuse it, manipulate it, and thus enforce their will rather than God's. The same thing has been seen in Islam. It was to act as protection of religion, from other religions.
I'll ask you another question, sir. Would you prefer it if 10 out of 10 people were christian and radical, beleiveing it was their duty to smite the impure and those who they believe are sinners, or for 5 of those 10 to be assorted religions and the other half actually understand what it means to be christian? This question is towards everyone. So was my original question to Mr. (Dr.) Dag.

[Oi_Ve]

Religion, yes.
Organized religion, no.
Organized religion has not been a positive force in the world. religion has always been, and always will be, because it allows individuals to interpert whatever religious text they want any way they want.
The idea of bringing the nation back to god suggests enforcing ideas held by christians, which is not what this nation was created on or for.
Some will say that is was founded on Judeo-Christian morals. That is false.
Every religion on the planet, before they even interacted with Jews or christians, Hell before either of those existed, beleived in the concept of non-violence, aid to those less fortunate, not stealing, respecting those who gave birth to you and so on. It's down right arrogant to say that these values are limited only to christians, that they are christian principles. They are human principles.
However, when organized religion is formed, it rarely stays along the path of righteousness and God, as history has proven. Now will some one answer the questions please.

[Dagummit]

A religious text does not qualify as proof, because by the very nature of it, it is biased. The Bible was written by man. You can say it is God's word, but doing so creates a logical falacy. Eg.

"How do you know god exists?"
"Because the Bible says so."
"How do you know it's right?"
"Because God wrote it."
...

and you did not answer my original question.
This question is towards everyone. So was my original question to Mr. (Dr.) Dag.

I could sit here and give you a three hour lecture on the proof positives that the Bible is the most accurate and historically correct document ever written in the history of the world. But would you even listen? I have a feeling that you (like most leftist's do) ask questions but don't want to hear the answers. You ask them in vain. But to answer your question, I leave you with this for an assignment since you are "so interested".

Read Lee Strobel's "A Case for Christ" and "A Case for Faith".
Found here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-6974349-7896108

Lee S. was an atheist, much like yourself, and cursed the very being of God. He went out in search of facts to prove it (the Bible) wrong once and for all, but what happened is that the realized that it (the Bible) was indeed true and infalliable and he is now a believer! And before you go making silliy statements that there are holes and errors in the Bible, I will bet you $10,000 (literally) that you can't do it. And if you take me up on this bet, I will make you pay once you lose.

Anyhow...read those books. Give me your address (or PO Box) and I'll send them to you on tape; yours to keep. If after you read (or listened) to those with an open mind and still have ridicule in your heart, then you are worse off than when you started, becuase then you would have hardened you heart to an extent that nothing would show you the truth, then you will deal with it in the next life; not me.

Ps, I am not a doctor yet. :icon_bigg

[IHL]

I have deleted the real names of those that posted them. Using real names on this site is going to be added to the rules of things that are not allowed. I have two main reasons for this...

There are a lot of whackos out there and as we have already seen, it is too easy to look up information on people. I don't what that sort of thing starting here.

Secondly, it is too easy to put out a name, say it's you when it may not be. That person then could be the target of harassment or anything else. I'm not suggesting that happened, I'm just saying it's a possibility.

So, in the future - do not use any real names of users on this site.

Thanks.

[Oi_Ve]

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on sonny boy. I'm no atheist and before you go throwing around such terms I suggest you get off your high horse and realize that just because somebody questions something, or doesn't hold the exact same interpertation of the Holy Scripture's as you doesn't mean they're an antheist or any less devoted to God. I've been a church going man all my life, I was raised by a loving preahcer, I, like anyone who's lived, have had my days where I doubted in the existance of God, my times where I've lost faith. That is no longer the case.
Many of you will sit there and say that homosexuals are trying to force you to accept their lifestyle as right. I completely understand and agree that their leaders are, though I doubt if my gay neighbor's are plotting to take away my free will.
Now you must understand something, many 'leftists' feel as if people such as yourself are shoving religion down their throats. The fact is that there is no set 'right' way that we know of in terms of religion, only God knows the right way to live and interpert the Bible and whatnot, if the Bible is the right way at all (again, no one is sure. faith isn't about being sure, that's why its faith). Many people interpet the Bible differently, some not at all, yet are equally pious individuals. Simply because people have different takes on God doesn't mean they're anyless religious, because in the end it isn't about what you call God, what religous stance you took or anything else. It's the fact that you acknowledged His existance, that you lived your life in a moral and just manner. All roads lead to God in the end, so does it matter if the road you took was one of Islam, or Judaism, or any interpertation of Christianity? Either way, it was what you did, not necessarily how you believed that mattered.
As for your book offer, thank you, but actually I was rummaging through my father's bookshelf last week (last week meaning I'm too old to remember just exactly when it was, but it woudl have to have been recently, hoho...getting old isn't fun) and I noticed he owned a copy and I sat down and read it.
I'm also retired, so I don't have $10000 to wager. I would like to point out that I never said there where holes in the Bible. What I did say was that the Bible and Christianity are absurd. Islam is too. And Shinto, and the idea of the Greek gods, and all religions to ever exist, because the events in them which we take literally are often break the boundaries of the natural world (a staff turning into a serpent, is, at least, weird. that is unless you personally know someone who can throw a staff and have change into a snake in which my question to him is 'Do you do birthdays?" hoho, a little humor).
You also must have missed the statement I made when I said I believe in Creationism and the Judeo-Christian God (I also beleive in all other God's as well, if you're wondering how/why I'll be glad to explain it but I dont feel like explaining the empty room theory if I dont have to). I humbly request you not lable me as either atheist or leftist (well technically I suppsoe I am....I'm conservative and you would appear to be a bit farther to the right on the spectrum, so by comparison to you I am leftist...but to leftists, I'm rightist...odd)
And I know you're not a doctor yet, but I've found a little optimism never hurt anyone

[Dagummit]

I have deleted the real names of those that posted them. Using real names on this site is going to be added to the rules of things that are not allowed. I have two main reasons for this...

There are a lot of whackos out there and as we have already seen, it is too easy to look up information on people. I don't what that sort of thing starting here.

Secondly, it is too easy to put out a name, say it's you when it may not be. That person then could be the target of harassment or anything else. I'm not suggesting that happened, I'm just saying it's a possibility.

So, in the future - do not use any real names of users on this site.

Thanks.

Cool..thanks for looking out.

[Dagummit]

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on sonny boy. I'm no atheist and before you go throwing around such terms I suggest you get off your high horse and realize that just because somebody questions something...,

Okay, but in that original post that I read by you, you sure sounded like an atheist to me or at least an agnostic.


...I've been a church going man all my life, I was raised by a loving preahcer, I, like anyone who's lived, have had my days where I doubted in the existance of God, my times where I've lost faith....

Sorry dude, but I have never doubted the existance of God, but I guess that is me on my "high horse" again, right?


...All roads lead to God in the end, so does it matter if the road you took was one of Islam, or Judaism, or any interpertation of Christianity? Either way, it was what you did, not necessarily how you believed that mattered.
You say that you read the Bible? Well re-read these verses:

Matthew 7:13-14
13"You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. 14But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it.

Matthew 7:21
21"Not all people who sound religious are really godly. They may refer to Me as `Lord,' but they still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The decisive issue is whether they obey My Father in heaven.

John 14:6
6Jesus told him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through Me.

Still think there are many roads to God and into heaven?



...I did say was that the Bible and Christianity are absurd.

This is a prime example of why I called you a atheist...


...I believe in Creationism and the Judeo-Christian God (I also beleive in all other God's as well,
If you call the Bible absurd, then how can you believe in these simple statements?



...I humbly request you not lable me as either atheist or leftist
Okay, fair enough...but how about an agnostic? Dude, I would NOT want to be hand-cuffed to you when you pass on. (dang, another high horse comment again...)


...And I know you're not a doctor yet, but I've found a little optimism never hurt anyone
Thanks for the comment.

[Oi_Ve]

Okay, but in that original post that I read by you, you sure sounded like an atheist to me or at least an agnostic.


Sorry dude, but I have never doubted the existance of God, but I guess that is me on my "high horse" again, right? .

you were on a high horse when you called me an atheist and an agnostic and preached to me, when in fact you knew very little about me. not everyone does lose faith, but then again, everyone has a different life and thus may have their reasons for losing faith. I'm not talking about the typical teen rebellion against traditionally held views, I mean a time in your life when it really doesn't seem like God exists. there's nothing wrong with not doubting God's existance, and I'm happy that you haven't experienced anything that would make you doubt. You're either a stronger man than I, or luckier.



You say that you read the Bible? Well re-read these verses:

Matthew 7:13-14
13"You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. 14But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it.

Matthew 7:21
21"Not all people who sound religious are really godly. They may refer to Me as `Lord,' but they still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The decisive issue is whether they obey My Father in heaven.

John 14:6
6Jesus told him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through Me.

Still think there are many roads to God and into heaven?.

yes, I do. care to know why? because if there wasn't then I suppose that all the people who lived in china, japan, and the america's before they even knew about christianity went to Hell, and that everyone who isn't christian is going to Hell. But God is merciful, is he not? I beleive God is good. Is a being who would condemn most of the human race to ETERNAL HELLFIRE simply because they got his name wrong good? I guess it's ok to be horribly corrupt and wicked if you're Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Shinto, Wiccan and all the rest, cause after all you're going to Hell anyways, right?
Either way, you're also taking those lines out of context. The first one refers to the way you live your life. The easy way, the wide one, the immoral one. The narrow, and difficult one is a moral life.
The second talks about people who claim to be God fearing and pious, but truely aren't. The people I refer to are the good little buddhist monks who have devoted themselves to living a life of poverty and celebacy, and who help the needy and meditate in hopes of living a moral life as they see it. Those Irish catholics who go to church every week and who instill biblical values to their children. Or that family of orthodox Jews. Even those nice asians who suffer large losses to their gross domestic product because they close down all their comapnies to take the day off and worship their spirits, and at the same time follow their cultural views and not steal, murder, etc. But because they don't believe in Jesus (in fact, there are still several places on Earth that have not heard about christianity) they won't be rewarded.
And your third quote, which I'm sure you think you've caught me with, doesn't work either, simply because of grammar. Jesus cannot be the truth, it doesn't make grammatical sense. His teachings are the truth. His teachings are the way. One reaches God through the teachings of Jesus. Yes one of those is to accept Him and his Father, however your second quote helps me out here. According to it, it's obvious that just saying you accept Jesus and Jehovah doesn't get you rewarded, it's that you obey Him. Obeying = following His laws ie teachings. Every religion follows Jesus's teachings, save the 'worship no other god but Jehovah/Jesus', in which case the god's name changes. Now, have you ever wondered why all religions are like that? Maybe because the God's of all the world's religions are in fact one and the same. Is it a coincadence that every culture has developed the SAME basic ideas of morality? Doubtful.


This is a prime example of why I called you a atheist....

atheism is the belief in no divine being. calling something you've based your life around absurd is not atheist, it's humbling


If you call the Bible absurd, then how can you believe in these simple statements?.

The events in them are not normal, now are they? You have the realistic, and then the absurd. Moses pulling a snake out of a basket and throwing it before the pharoah is realistic. making his staff turn into a snake is not realistic. if you read that someone else did it, you'd take it with a grain of salt, right? Why? because it's absurd. When I say absurd, I don't mean to say it's full of shit. Think of it this way, if some poor bastard who had always lived in the jungle and never even thought of religion came out into our world and heard some of the stories in the Bible, don't you think he'd laugh a bit? A donkey talking? the sky raining fire? some guy holding up a stick and parting a whole ocean?




Okay, fair enough...but how about an agnostic? Dude, I would NOT want to be hand-cuffed to you when you pass on. (dang, another high horse comment again...).
If my above comments don't answer this question, or you still have questions, just say so.

Thanks for the comment.[/QUOTE]

[Dagummit]

You believe what you want to and I'll believe what I want to. But I think if you polled most Christians, that they would disagree with you on your rational.

I am not going to get into any more religious bickerings on this thread. It is up way past its bedtime.

[alwaysRight]

How do you enforce English as the standardized language? Punish people who include spanish in their instructions?

I won't assume anything because we all know what assuming does, but here's the deal... I think you can enforce English as the standard language by making sure the people who come here know how to make sentences, speak fluently.

I deal with people EVERY day in my job from all over the country, and it gets on my nerves to have a person who speaks Spanish call in and EXPECT me to know Spanish or someone else to know. If you want to come here, learn how to speak English and don't expect me to conform to your ways or your way of speaking.

I don't care if they want to use their language with themselves but when it comes to people who don't know Spanish(or any other language) or don't WANT to know it, atleast do us the favour and give us the courtesy of using a language we can understand.

And I don't see making them speak English as being a punishment. I would never move to Germany or Japan or even Spain without knowing their language.. that's ridiculous!

[alwaysRight]

BTW- Welcome Dag.. and like most people I see posting here, I think I like you too =)

I haven't been here too long but all I can say is as with everything, some people will not agree with what you say, don't stress though... You know what you're talking about... =)

[the-man]

I would just recommend that the lighter spoken Christians in politics make better laws and discern the existing laws, but first the ACLU has to shut up.



its so good to hear people say that the ACLU has to shut up :tongue:

[HOKIEHUNTER]

someone show me in the Bible where God is this "all the time all merciful" God. Last time I checked God destroyed Sodom and Gemora, sent plauges to Egypt, and allowed His CHOSEN people to wander in the wilderness for 40 years. does this sound like a completely single-minded God??? NO!!!!!! God is peaceful, caring, loving, and merciful, but God is also JEALOUS, WRATHFUL, VENGEFUL, INTOLERANT(!!!!!!!!), and WORTHY TO BE FEARED!!!!!! it amazes me how many "Christian" sects ignore this fact.

before you go off talkin about God, make sure you know the whole God, and not just the warm fuzzy parts...

[the-man]

someone show me in the Bible where God is this "all the time all merciful" God. Last time I checked God destroyed Sodom and Gemora, sent plauges to Egypt, and allowed His CHOSEN people to wander in the wilderness for 40 years. does this sound like a completely single-minded God??? NO!!!!!! God is peaceful, caring, loving, and merciful, but God is also JEALOUS, WRATHFUL, VENGEFUL, INTOLERANT(!!!!!!!!), and WORTHY TO BE FEARED!!!!!! it amazes me how many "Christian" sects ignore this fact.

before you go off talkin about God, make sure you know the whole God, and not just the warm fuzzy parts...


you are right but he has reasons for what he had done. Im sorry but im going to say something really cheasy here. but to protect the people you love sometimes you have to hurt those people that you love to protect them. god had punished the people of isreal becouse they would no longer listen to him or any of the prophets. I'm pretty sure but i believe it says that god created us in his image. So you have to have the good traits and the bad traits.