Department of Justice "Art"

[fancyguppy]

Did you guys here about some of the Anti War art being displayed in the Department of Justice of Sacramento?? Apparently when the art was first put up they were saying they were proud to display this wonderful art and now nobody wants to take responsibility for it now that people are upset by it.

Here is the link!

http://www.moveamericaforward.org/index.php/DailyFile/antiamerican_art_display/

Isnt the logic of liberals great??

Ten commandments being displayed = bad Anti war/Anti Bush Art = good

Thoughts guys?

[RightisRightLeftisWrong]

More anti-America/pro Terriost crap, MAF dosnt stand for Move America Foward it stands for Making America Fall.

[thumbelina]

Move America Forward (http://www.moveamericaforward.org/) = good

MoveOn (http://www.moveon.org/) = bad

:icon_bigg

Look again at the link provided in the 1st post! :wink:

[Mr. Glass]

Move America Forward (http://www.moveamericaforward.org/) = good

MoveOn (http://www.moveon.org/) = bad

:icon_bigg

Look again at the link provided in the 1st post! :wink:


MAF is no less biased or ideological than MoveOn.org. They're both breeding grounds for contempt of the other side and it dfoesn't do anyone a bit of good.


Both sites make their supporters feel better about themselves.
Both sites are propaganda mills against the other side.
Both sites are only tolerant of their own kind.
Both sites claim to love America more than the other side.
Both sites attack well reasoned facts if their oppinions don't agree.
Both sites have memebers who "HATE" the other side.
Both sites attack other campaigns as "anti-american" and unpatriotic.
Both sites claim that the other sides hates America.
Both sites think they're right and everyone else is a moron.
Both sites perpetuate intollerance.
Both sites claim they support our troops.
Both sites claim the other side does not.

So when are we as a people going to stop attacking each other and work together to make something good happen? Is that even possible any more? I think it is, and I'm willing to work for it.... but bitching about who's righter than the other only stalls progress.

Neither site represents me, they both embarass me as an American.

-Doug

[thumbelina]

Mr. Glass... chill! I was only responding to this post...
More anti-America/pro Terriost crap, MAF dosnt stand for Move America Foward it stands for Making America Fall. ...my guess is RRLW was confusing the two organizations, MoveAmericaForward and MoveOn. One is anti-American while the other is not.

[Mr. Glass]

Thumbelina... I guess I cant argue with your oppinion that one site is anti-american and one is not... but I would again refer you to my above post.

Just because _YOU_ say one site is and one isnt anti-american doesn't make that a fact.

My feeling has always been that when you try to express oppinion as fact it makes you look uneducated/misinformed/biased/judgemental. If that;s ok with you, then I'm cool with that... it does mean, however, that I will not be able to take anything you say seriously. If that's ok with you, then by all means... keep on keepin' on.

Again, I would point out that both of these websites spend inordinate amounts of time trying to convince their viewers that they're right and the other side is wrong. Both sides have made a couple of good points that have been obliterated and lost in a sea of propaganda and bias-mongering.

Just because a website has more American flags and more users with names like "LiberalsSuck" does not mean they love America more than people on a site that is critical of this administration and devoted to seeing a better furture as they envision it (right or wrong, left or not left)

Please.... just keep an open mind and consider all the facts....That's what makes us HUMAN... our ability to think critically and respond to dynamic situations. (ok, I guess thats my oppinion, you may think God makes us Humans, or that we're all Aliens for all I care)

-Doug

[IHL]

Exactly Thumby, and Mr. Glass, they are not the same. MAF may be biased, but they are not anti-American.

Here are a few question regarding the so-called art they are displaying.

Why is it that this sort of stuff should be allowed even though it is obviously offensive to most Americans. Well, real Americans anyway.

Why is this allowed and the 10 Commandments has to be taken down.

How supportive of this "artwork" would the liberals be if that was a picture of the Quran in the toilet? The liberals cry and bitch and jump up and down when a FAKE story of Quran abuse runs in Newsweek. How terrible America is for degrading the Quran. We are horrible people, our soldiers are barbaric. We are worse than Hitler and the Soviet gulags. But, let a left wing nut job paint a picture of the United States in a toilet and the liberals rally to the support. No one will be able to explain it, at least other than to say what I've always said...

Liberals are the first to blame America for problems, even if the allegations are false. (Dan Rather, memogate, Newsweek, 9/11, etc.) But, liberals rush to defend our enemies. Saddam, Guitmo, Abu Ghraib. A Quran in the toilet? - Atrocious! The United States in the toilet. - Art. And people can actually be proud to call themselves liberals?

[Mr. Glass]

Hey IHL, thanks for popping us back on topic... heh...

As (among many subjects) a Fine Arts student, allow me to try to give you some answers for your

questions.





Why is it that this sort of stuff should be allowed even though it is obviously offensive to most Americans. Well, real Americans anyway.

This loaded question is formed on subjective deffinitions of highly intangible concepts: "Art" "America" and "Real". As an artist, I've struggled for years over what Art is. To me, art is an attempt by the soul to express or make a statement. That is a very broad realm that encompasess Art. Art can be inflamatory, disrespectful, and tasteless. Art is oppinion.

As an American, I became politically aware of the world when Clinton was facing impeachment. Since then, I have struggled to define what makes me American as opposed to Human, and what, exactlly, defines my America. I'll spare you the details, suffice to say we all enjoy the human freedom to think for ourselves. I've come to the conclusion that our feelings as to what is America will be as varied as we are. There are, no doubt, certain things that most of us can agree on... We all share a national myth - Our constitution, bill of rights, Declararion of Independance, our history, our borders and our people, etc. But there are just as many things that not everyone agrees on. Some people feel these differneces should be legislated, others feel that these are what make us uniquely American (I'm of the latter group usually)

Real is a subject of many many esoteric books and essays, that if you feel like spending some time in a philosophy departments library you can find, but I can't give a biblography off hand. Real, to me, means tangible. Tangible means you can hold it in your hand. Reguardless of their politics, I can touch my neighbors (no, not like that) and they are, as far as I know, Americans, so they are "Real Americans" to me.

I do not define an American by their politics.

So, to answer your question, why should it be allowed? Because the first ammendment of the Constitution says that the Government has no right to interfere in the free expression of the people.

The same document gives the offednded population the right to object to it. Imagine, for a moment, if you were forced by law to look at that, then not allowed to object. Would that be a proper and just law?

Public oppinion can sway a curator to intervene in a showing. I'd suggest you complain to the people to whom your complaint would be most effective. Contact the shows curator and let them know how you feel, but be careful to be civil or you wont be taken seriously.




Why is this allowed and the 10 Commandments has to be taken down.

Well, for one thing an Art show is usually temporary, and generally secular. Carving the 10 commandments into stone as part of a structure is not temporary, nor is is secular. This is more a question of politics than right or wrong.... I am fully supportive of an artshow featuring the 10 commandments that would call attention to this issue being shown in a public and controversial space. Art should make people think. Again, everyone is free to voice their oppinion, why not host your own pro-commandments show in a courthouse or city hall? That would be great.

My feeling is that the rules governing separation of church and state is one of the very few things that prevents this country from turning into an extremist theocracy. Once the state adopts one religion, others would follow suit in demanding recognition. While christians are generally peaceful in their ambitions, some denominations, as well as other religions, sects, and cults are not. The disruption they would cause is reason enough to just leave well enough alone. You want a CONSERVATIVE value? how about NOT undoing 200+ years of what's been working pretty well.

The same laws that protect Muslim and Jewish groups in this country from hate crimes also protect Christians. Recently there was a spate of cross burnings in the south, these were crimes of hate against Christians. Without these protections both sides would have problems they just dont need to deal with.

How would you feel if I came to your church and demanded you let me place the Bill of Rights on the Alter? Some churches probably wouldnt mind much, others would throw a fit. I think it's better to just not press the issue at all, and leave each other alone.

Of course, if anyone tried to pass a law saying that Christians couldnt be in a courthouse, or kids couldnt bring bibles to school for private use, I'd be up in arms about that too, so don't worry... I have your interests in mind when I form my oppinion on the matter.




How supportive of this "artwork" would the liberals be if that was a picture of the Quran in the toilet?

As Art? I'd probably think it was in poor taste and misguided, but it wouldn't be particularly offensive to me.



The liberals cry and bitch and jump up and down when a FAKE story of Quran abuse runs in Newsweek.

Well thats a debate for another thread. Some of the story was corroborated. I'm sure individuals take it upon themselves to do all kinds of things most Americans wouldnt agree with. Abuse and torture are worse than this, and we know that's gone on in Iraq. Of course Saddam was worse... but damn... that's no excuse.




How terrible America is for degrading the Quran. We are horrible people, our soldiers are barbaric. We are worse than Hitler and the Soviet gulags.

Oppinions of a few. The few are, however, very well researched and educated in the matter... more so than, I dare say, our resident armchair pundits. As a rational semi-liberal I think there's some truth in what they say, but their approch is wrong. To drop names like Hitler is just very poor taste, I do not disagree however that we should remain vigilant and critical of the government. "America" is an intangible force that is incapable of torture and abuse. People are not. There are PEOPLE who are hurting Americas image. I think most people, liberal and conservative see it that way.

Saying Americans are Human, Hitler was Human, so all Americans must be Hitler is like saying Elvis is dead, my cat is dead, so my cat must have been Elvis. It just doesn't work, and I dont think it fools anyone for more than a couple of seconds (if at all)



But, let a left wing nut job paint a picture of the United States in a toilet and the liberals rally to the support.

Well, I'll support their right to say it, if I agree with the content or not. In that case, I really don't... but if you want to paint a rebutal, I'd love to see that.




No one will be able to explain it, at least other than to say what I've always said...

I've tried to explain it. To understand doesn't mean you have to agree. It's up to you to process the information and form your own oppinions form here on out.





Liberals are the first to blame America for problems, even if the allegations are false. (Dan Rather, memogate, Newsweek, 9/11, etc.)

I would say it starts to look for problems at home but to never ignore things abroad, but the world is a big place, and again, what is America this time, our borders? I also am not so blindly patriotic that I am of the oppinion that Amerricans can do no wrong. Americans are people, people can err. I also have to point out that when we were attacked on 9/11 Osama Bin Ladin released a lengthy tape explainging why he attacked us. How many of you have seen that whole tape? I have. It was hard to watch, and hard to beilive some of what he said (not that what he was saying was true or not, but that he was even saying it at all). Again, understanding is not agreeing, but that tape is at odds with a lot of what bush said. OBL didnt have a thing to say about our freedoms or religion, it was ALL about Isreal and sanctions on Iraq and interferance with their Oil. Justified or not, those were his reasons. If you just perpetrated the largest terrorist attack on American soil would you use the time to lie or to make your point?...but I digress, sorry.




But, liberals rush to defend our enemies. Saddam, Guitmo, Abu Ghraib. A Quran in the toilet? -

WHATever... I think we need to hold criminals accountble, and it starts at home. How are small time people who torture innocent Iraqis who are only in jail because they have the same name as someone else any differntr than Uday, who would torture innocent Iraqis because they looked at him in the street? Accountability and credibility are what's at stake here. I don't buy it for one second that there's a liberal agenda to free Saddam, or coddle our enemies. I do, however, buy into the universal notion that Humans shouldnt be tortured, the American notion of innocent until proven guilty, and the spiritual notion of being a good shepard. Amerticans who violate that should be held accountable or we lose credibility.



Atrocious! The United States in the toilet. - Art. And people can actually be proud to call themselves liberals?

Well, I'm proud to call myself an American, but I try to avoid the left/right conservative/liberal label....so where's that put me?

-Doug

[thumbelina]

My feeling has always been that when you try to express oppinion as fact it makes you look uneducated/misinformed/biased/judgemental. If that;s ok with you, then I'm cool with that... it does mean, however, that I will not be able to take anything you say seriously. If that's ok with you, then by all means... keep on keepin' on. The next time you make a feeble attempt to insult my intelligence, check your spelling: opinion and judgmental

[Mr. Glass]

Ah, yes eye sea aye made a mistake. It would bee nice if ewe guys got a spell check for the sight, I can find out what sum other vb boards use if you want.

From now on, since spelling is all the rage, I will run my posts through MS Word before I post.

Anyways, Thumbelina, I wasn't trying to insult you or anyone else, allow me to restate what I said.... with corrected spelling and everything!

My feeling has always been that when one tries to express opinion as fact it makes that person look uneducated/misinformed/biased/judgmental...

As it relates to you, I'm just offering my observation of how you approached this debate, I don't mean to comment on the content, if I did, I apologize.

My goal is to see well reasoned and logical debate, not emotional rhetoric.

Anyways, in the context of a web forum without a spell check.... I can excuse spelling error, but logic is something that either is or isn’t there.... and my general observation has been that on all of these forums, not just this one, not any political issue specifically, there's a lack of reason and logic in their debates.

I'm not calling you stupid. This isn’t something I would be aware of if someone hadn't made me aware of it as an adult, and I'm just trying to call it as I see it.

Sorry if I went a bit over the top.

-Doug

[Mr. Glass]

Mr. Glass, they are not the same. MAF may be biased, but they are not anti-American.


Again, that's your opinion, and I agree. MAF is not Anti-American.

however, my opinion extends to include that Moveon.org may be biased, but they are not Anti-American.

Both sides are biased, and both sides openly and viciously accuse the other of being Anti-American, just as you do here.

Having read some arguments from both sides, I've come to my conclusion that neither sites are worth the trouble of wading through the bullshit to get to the truth they contain.

But, having read some of their articles, I can understand (not agree) where they're coming from. Both sites could be said to be detrimental to what I view as a sane and stable America. That's just my opinion.

And, as always, it comes down to what you define as American, and how you define "Anti". Is Anti- taking an active stance against something, or is it simply something that is detrimental or passively opposed to an issue? I'm still out on that one, leaning somewhere towards, you guessed it, the middle.

-Doug

[rightwingxtremist]

Both sites are propaganda mills against the other side

Propaganda eh? The pictures speak for themselves. After all, which one of the two sites sponsored Bush=hitler media? I don't care if Capt. Kangaroo had these pictures on his web site, we're discussing the pictures, not the web sites that they were posted on...

What a typical liberal response, oh, that isn't true or legitimate, because they are assholes and I'm so smart!

- N

[RightisRightLeftisWrong]

...my guess is RRLW was confusing the two organizations, MoveAmericaForward and MoveOn. One is anti-American while the other is not.

apologize maybe its the M's and damn that was one long post Mr. Glass

and where the "Crap" is being displayed is in California and we all know cali is a liberal state so its not suprising.

[IHL]

Well Mr. Glass you are more open-minded than I am. I am open-minded enough to admit that. I am very conservative on many things but not on everything.



Art can be inflamatory, disrespectful, and tasteless. Art is oppinion.
I think this topic of calling something 'art' is a cop out. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize that some things are just garbage. You can call a turd art all you want. It's still a turd. Let me borrow some words from Ann Coulter. You may or may not like her but one of her recent columns is very apropos here. You want to call some of the following 'art'?

— Performance of giant bloody tampons, satanic bunnies, three-foot feces and vibrators. — NEA-funded performance (NEA = National Endowment for the Arts - funded by tax payers.)

— A photo of a newborn infant with its mouth open titled to suggest the infant was available for oral sex. — NEA-funded performance

— A female performer inserting a speculum into her vagina and inviting audience members on stage to view her cervix with a flashlight. — NEA-funded performance

— Christ submerged in a jar of urine. — NEA-funded exhibit

— A show titled "DEGENERATE WITH A CAPITAL D" featuring a display of the remains of the artist's own aborted baby. — NEA-funded exhibit

Call it art if you want. It's not. Calling something art, doesn't make it so.

If this "United States in a toilet" thing was in a private gallery, I wouldn't complain. But it was/is in a government building. It doesn't belong there. If the government can't display the 10 Commandments because it offends someone, they damn sure can't show a painting of the United States in a toilet and justify it by simply attaching a label of "this is art" to it. I use the 10 Commandments as an example only. I personally don't care if the Commandments are displayed or not. But if someone can make the case of being offended by the Commandments, I can damn sure make that same argument about that painting. Because I truly am offended by it. And I am not easily offended.

[rightwingxtremist]

If this "United States in a toilet" thing was in a private gallery, I wouldn't complain. But it was/is in a government building. It doesn't belong there. If the government can't display the 10 Commandments because it offends someone, they damn sure can't show a painting of the United States in a toilet and justify it by simply attaching a label of "this is art" to it.

If nothing else, it calls into question the liberal assertion that politics should be separate from the courtroom. Of course, that assertion, like everything else that liberals "believe" (for the moment), does not apply when it comes to rejecting nominees that do not agree with them politically, while talking out of the other side of their mouths saying that there should be no "politics" involved:

"Like Democrats, Snowe knows it's up to Roberts to demonstrate that he'll put ideology aside on the bench."

- DNC website quote (http://www.dnc.org/a/2005/07/john_roberts_ro.php)

Granted the lobby is a different place from the bench, but for a group of people that worships the judiciary as their saving power, putting all of their issues on the front burner and denying the majority of Americans their say on other issues, I find it to be hypocritical that they would put such inflammatory one-sided shit in a courthouse.

- N

[fancyguppy]

Those examples you gave IHL made me qeezy in my stomach and also made me think who in the HECK would want to do those things and call it "art". That "art" they are displaying in Sacramento are HIGHLY offensive. How can people who are enjoying the freedoms of this great country of ours have such hatred for it? I say people who spew such hate speech ( which I think it is ) should be forced to pack their bags and leave- wouldnt this be considered treason too btw?

[Mr. Glass]

Let me borrow some words from Ann Coulter. You may or may not like her but one of her recent columns is very apropos here. You want to call some of the following 'art'?

(plagerism deleted)

Call it art if you want. It's not. Calling something art, doesn't make it so.



Before you quote Ms. Coulter I would refer you to this story: http://rawstory.com/news/2005/coulter_caught_cribbing_column_720

You're right in that I don't really agree with Coulter. Given the recent revelations that she's a plagerist I think her credibility is about zero now.


At the end of the day, I always respect educated opinion over emotional opinion... but I'm just me.... if people want to just recycle the same old set of talking points over and over I can't stop that, but I can hope they're thinking about it rather than just being a machine/robot that spews out what Big Brother tells it to.

*shrug*

-Doug

[Mr. Glass]

wouldnt this be considered treason too btw?

I'd say no, and put the burden of proof on anyone who says otherwise.

2¢

-Doug

[RightisRightLeftisWrong]

wouldnt this be considered treason too btw?

I wish, I think that is where the first admendment comes into place Freedom of speach.

[IHL]

Mr. Glass. I'm a bit surprised and I though you were above what you just did. The point I brought up about Ann Coulter isn't about whether or not she plagiarized anything and has nothing to do with her credibility. You are trying to subvert the issue. The issue has nothing to do with Ann Coulter per se. The issue is about what people call art.

We can debate Ann Coulter on another thread, it has nothing to do with this topic. It doesn't not change the fact that the 'art exhibits' I reference are real and considered art by some people. Use any source you want, it doesn't change the fact that the NEA will consider the remains of a fetus as art. And the NEA is largely funded by tax payers.

Save your slamming of Ann Coulter for a different day and lets stick to this issue. I'd like to hear Ann's side of that issue before I pass judgement and I'm a bit surprised that with the numerous books that Ann has written, you will use on story to try to discredit her. But, that's up to you.

Again, the point. Feces, aborted fetuses, speculum's in women's vaginas, and a crucifix inserted into a mans anus - you consider that art? If so, I'd hate to see your collection.

[rightwingxtremist]

Before you quote Ms. Coulter I would refer you to this story: http://rawstory.com/news/2005/coulter_caught_cribbing_column_720

You're right in that I don't really agree with Coulter. Given the recent revelations that she's a plagerist I think her credibility is about zero now.


At the end of the day, I always respect educated opinion over emotional opinion...

Aren't you so special? Once again, it's time to shoot the messenger, this time with a flimsy little beebee, which is some small-time web column. You can bet your ass that if there were any substance to the story, it would be ALL OVER the lib media, NPR, etc... It seems that they won't touch it with a thirty-foot pole. Instead, we have this "news" revealed by some blog that calls Ms. Coulter the infamous "C word" in its URL referring to her. So you won't engage "ideologues", but you will get your information from them.

Why embark on a little side-show of blasting Ms. Coulter when you could answer for the shit "art" exhibits that IHL has quoted?

Let me give you an example of how this works. I could dismiss the E.L.F. as being a bunch of whack jobs that deserve to be banished, jailed, or killed. OR, I could point out that by burning a Hummer, they have succeeded in releasing more toxins into the air than would have been exhausted by that Hummer throughout its entire life. See the difference?

How about a little common sense over education and emotion?

- N

[Topiary Lady]

I wonder if the NEA would give funding for a little art project I've had in mind for some time. In light of how Muslims regard women as lesser 'objects' I would like point out the wonders of womanhood by placing a (pardon me) bloddy tampon in a jar with the Quran. You know, just like the NEA paid for the Christian Cross to be displayed in a jar of (pardon me) piss.

Is that art? My guess is that if I did such a thing I'd be accused of a hate crime.

Guess I may just have to go with having Teddy The Tumor put in a vat of vodka.

[Mr. Glass]

I wonder if the NEA would give funding for a little art project I've had in mind for some time. In light of how Muslims regard women as lesser 'objects' I would like point out the wonders of womanhood by placing a (pardon me) bloddy tampon in a jar with the Quran. You know, just like the NEA paid for the Christian Cross to be displayed in a jar of (pardon me) piss.

Is that art? My guess is that if I did such a thing I'd be accused of a hate crime.



Well, you can do it and find out, or not.

I'd do it just for the shock value, probably make the news, get a book deal. No one follows through on those death threats, and all the agents would wine and dine you for weeks if not months.

HURRAY FOR HOLLYWOOD!!!!!!

(sarcasm people.. saaarcasm)

[Topiary Lady]

I would not actually waste any of my time putting together such a thing Mr. Glass, as it would no more be 'art' than the crucifix in the jar of urine was. And no, the media would not cover that as 'art'. It would immediatly be labeled as hateful and vulgar and be reported as some sort of crime, unlike the hateful and vulgar attack on Christianity that the media so loved to report on as artistic expression.

However, since the Department Of Justice in California is now also an 'art' gallery and I have been working as an artist in California for over 11 years now, I am interested in submitting a piece of my art for display.

I have given this considerable thought and have decided to give the Democratic Donkey symbol a more up to date look. We all know that Hilllary will be the candidate in 2008 and so I've decided to make the Dem's mascot to look a little more like, well, Hillary. Naturally, I have done this in the form of a Topiary, being that I'm the Topiary Lady and all. So today I designed and created two frames and tomorrow will complete the sculptures. With a little help from IHL I will post photos here and you all can vote on which piece of ART I should pack up and send along with my request to have it put on display at the Department Of Justice.

I may have missed it in the article, but if anyone could please tell me who authorized the USA In Toilet piece to be put on display, I would like to be sure to submit my art to their attention. Since this person obviously has an affinity towards potty humor, I will be keeping in that theme with one topiary titled : You Are What You Eat, and the other: Fill'er Up Hildabeast. There will be no references to the American Flag or toilets. It's just the donkey. Or shall I say Ass?

[Mr. Glass]

OK, lets follow their logic. I'll carve a statue of Hillary clinton with a gun to her head, with the ten comandments engraved on the bottom. Sounds like good "art" to me.


Do it. I think a lot of people would appreciate it, and it would get under the skin of those whose who don't.

Of course, you have to be creative in your sculpting marerials....maybe try foodstuffs: spam, hotdogs, lard... something like that

Or you could use feces... or even better you could use something reeally edgy like find a near-dead volunteer to will you their body when they're dead, plastisize them, resculpt thwem to look like hillary....

anyways...it's not a bad idea for a sculpture.

-Doug