Environmentalism

[GERALD]

You are worth more than many sparrows !
... ... Matthews 10:29-31

[PolyPartisan]

I don't like left-winged tree-huggers anymore than you do, but the fact is that we can't ignore environmental issues just because the left bugs us too much. The fact is that things like clean water, air, etc., are a necessary public good, and, on the long run, necessary for our continued survival. Anyone who recognizes that can call themselves an environmentalist, and there's nothing fundamentally paradoxical about calling yourself a conservative environmentalist, as environmentalism itself doesn't espouse a particular political view. It's just unfortunate that the left currently has the monopoly on that movement... maybe the right should do something about that. Might win over a few voters even.

[Peace_by_superior _power]

I agree Poly. I love the outdoors. When I was younger I was an avid backpacker and I have hiked and camped all over the midwest and in the Rockies. Let me tell you, the song America the Beautiful hardly does her honor. Nothing beats waking up and smelling the fresh air and watching the sun rise or digging in after a few miles and watching the sun set. O Beautiful for spacious skies indeed.

The problem I see it as people not thinking locally enough. I know the problems of the areas I camp and bike at better than some fed in DC or some hippie in San Fran.

So with that I agree. I dont understand how the environment is not a bigger issue with the right. Not to stereotype, but I see us more as the outdoorsmen and since we are the ones that use nature, we should be the ones to protect nature because we understand it.

Case and point, a few years back they restricted hunting licensees in my county. The deer population boomed and so did the coyote and wolf population. Now that the restriction is gone the deer population has dropped. The predators have not yet. I live in the suburbs and we have wolves and stuff walking across 6 lane roads! The site is quite the juxtaposition of nature and urbanization.

[WhiteAfricanAmerican]

No doubt Polly, but the degree of environmental activism these days are bordering on terrorism.....

cutting off water to farmer's in CA and driving them off their land and away from their chosen vocation over to some obscure minnow is insane. Sadly this kind of stupidity is more the norm than the exception.

[GERALD]

I don't like left-winged tree-huggers anymore than you do, but the fact is that we can't ignore environmental issues just because the left bugs us too much. The fact is that things like clean water, air, etc., are a necessary public good, and, on the long run, necessary for our continued survival. Anyone who recognizes that can call themselves an environmentalist, and there's nothing fundamentally paradoxical about calling yourself a conservative environmentalist, as environmentalism itself doesn't espouse a particular political view. It's just unfortunate that the left currently has the monopoly on that movement... maybe the right should do something about that. Might win over a few voters even.

I understand you and the neo cons.

You think it would be just wonderful
for the conservatives to take over
the liberal causes.

Ah one problem,

wouldn't that make us liberals?
_______________

We are all for clean water, etc.
Tell me why the liberals are NOT.

In the Central Valley California

Where 90% of your tomatoes, almonds and pistasheos and a bunch of other stuff: Brussel sprouts, garlic, raisens, etc. used to come from.

They no longer do. Why ??? Because the government has turned off 80% of the water to that valley. Why ??? They say they need the water to save an itty bitty fish, a minnow.

The unemployment rate now exceeds 50%.

So the government has sent in social workers to set up food lines and to bring in food from CHINA.

Never forget:
"The Valley That Hope Forgot."
.

[GERALD]

No doubt Polly, but the degree of environmental activism these days are bordering on terrorism.....

cutting off water to farmer's in CA and driving them off their land and away from their chosen vocation over to some obscure minnow is insane. Sadly this kind of stupidity is more the norm than the exception.

WAA and Peace, There were many minorities
farming the central valley and becoming
self sufficient. And voting conservative.

Could be part of the reason the government is
destroying the region. It is not some small
valley either; It goes from Bakersfield all
the way to Fresno and beyond. Some
400 - 500 miles long.

I know from personal experience, as I drove through
this valley many times and as recently as last
August. 2009.
__________________

As to wolves and other preditors. We should study the
Eastern Europe Experience. The European socialist
governments are happy that the towns-people no
longer feel safe to walk outside their home.

No need to declare marshall law. Just protect the preditors
on the pretence of protecting the environment.
.

[PolyPartisan]

No doubt Polly, but the degree of environmental activism these days are bordering on terrorism.....

cutting off water to farmer's in CA and driving them off their land and away from their chosen vocation over to some obscure minnow is insane. Sadly this kind of stupidity is more the norm than the exception.

No argument there. I would say that eco-terrorists are terrorists (albeit generally of a less violent nature than, say, religious terrorists).

But there are conservative/libertarian responses to environmental issues. I, for one, believe that there's potential in using free market mechanisms to combat pollution. If we want to save the planet, the best way to do it would be to make environmental protection profitable somehow.

None of us like paying lots for gas, for instance, but the truth is that as oil becomes more scarce, the price on the marketplace will naturally increase. It will eventually get to the point where it will be economically preferable to develop alternative fuels, and trying to subsidize gas in the meantime will disrupt this vitally important capitalist mechanism.

[PolyPartisan]

I understand you and the neo cons.

You think it would be just wonderful
for the conservatives to take over
the liberal causes.

Ah one problem,

wouldn't that make us liberals?

Nope. It would just make the liberals less credible when the economic conservatives are proven to have a more effective response.

[Topiary Lady]

None of us like paying lots for gas, for instance, but the truth is that as oil becomes more scarce, the price on the marketplace will naturally increase.

Why do you suppose that oil will become more and more "scarce"? Some of that wouldn't be because the 'environmentalists' won't let us do any drilling, would it?

[PolyPartisan]

Why do you suppose that oil will become more and more "scarce"? Some of that wouldn't be because the 'environmentalists' won't let us do any drilling, would it?

On the short-term, yes, drilling would bring relief. But we all know that oil is a finite resource and will eventually run out, even if we do drill the remaining oil. Since the clock is ticking either way, I would rather keep the remaining untapped reserves as an emergency supply and let the free-market mechanisms do their trick now, when we still have time on our side. Since we can't bring on a new technological revolution over night, I would rather our generation take on the burden, as we still have oil left to ease over the transition, then leave our children and grandchildren to cope in a world where there's neither enough oil left to supply our needs nor the technological innovations to cope.

[GERALD]

Nope. It would just make the liberals less credible when the economic conservatives are proven to have a more effective response.

Poly the conservative approach is to clean up after ourself,
and leave the rest to our Creator.

It is the liberal who thinks he knows more and better than
the Creator.

We have faith that the Creator knows what he is doing.

It is the liberal who worries about every little thing until
he drives himself crazy enough to think that the state is
the answer.

[Peace_by_superior _power]

I think the fact that you support something and feel that is good for the world and what you believe in should dictate if you support it, not if it is a conservative/liberal idea. Cannot think for yourself Gerald?

[PolyPartisan]

Poly the conservative approach is to clean up after ourself,
and leave the rest to our Creator.

It is the liberal who thinks he knows more and better than
the Creator.

We have faith that the Creator knows what he is doing.

It is the liberal who worries about every little thing until
he drives himself crazy enough to think that the state is
the answer.

Ummm... God doesn't create pollution. We do.

[GERALD]

On the short-term, yes, drilling would bring relief. But we all know that oil is a finite resource and will eventually run out, even if we do drill the remaining oil. Since the clock is ticking either way, I would rather keep the remaining untapped reserves as an emergency supply and let the free-market mechanisms do their trick now, when we still have time on our side. Since we can't bring on a new technological revolution over night, I would rather our generation take on the burden, as we still have oil left to ease over the transition, then leave our children and grandchildren to cope in a world where there's neither enough oil left to supply our needs nor the technological innovations to cope.

Poly, Shame on you. You've bought into the liberal philosophy of limitation.
We have been running out of oil ever since Henry Ford.

Strangly we keep finding more. The scientists are perplexed.

They will admit, if pressed, that they do not
know where oil comes from.

It has been obvious to thinking people for
some time now that oil does not come
from dead dinosaurs.

We need a new book, "Everything we learned in school is wrong."

There is a new theory that oil is actually being produced
by the earth. The more we pump out, the more is produced.
The more we burn it and produce carbon dioxide CO2, the more
vegetation grows to consume the excess CO2. One of life's cycles.
The Creator is the greatest recycler of all.

It is a wondrous and complex world the Creator planned for us.

Liberals would be happier if they started having a little faith,
as much as a little mustard seed is all that is asked. Then they
could stop worrying and start really enjoying life.
.

[GERALD]

I think the fact that you support something and feel that is good for the world and what you believe in should dictate if you support it, not if it is a conservative/liberal idea. Cannot think for yourself Gerald?

I am trying to think for myself. And
trying not to think for the world.
The liberals already do that.
.

[GERALD]

Ummm... God doesn't create pollution. We do.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

[Dr. Madd]

Enviromentalism is one of the weapons the Bolsheviks will use to force communism on the world. There is room for all of God's creatures, Under the Gravy, After the Salad, and next to the mashed potatoes.

[GERALD]

Ummm... God doesn't create pollution. We do.

POLY, Please note my first sentence in my prior post.

Originally Posted by GERALD
Poly the conservative approach is to clean up after ourself,
and leave the rest to our Creator.

I agree with the Libertarian approaches to environment.

However, Liberals always seem to get their way, and make
problems worse. eg, elephant poaching, etc.
.

[PolyPartisan]

GERALD, I can ask you a serious question? Are you a liberal trying to infiltrate this site by posing as a totally nonsensical consersative? You constantly contradict yourself, make innane points that not even the conservatives here bother backing up, and most of what you say, frankly, makes no use of logic... not even from a right-winged perspective. Either you are just incredibly nonsensical, or you're a troll trying to take the piss out of conservatives by hoping they'll latch on to your stupidity so you can laugh at them from your desktop.

Lemme take for instance your point about "cleaning up after yourself" being the conservative response to environmentalism. That statement is so broad and vague, it conveys nothing about your beliefs. You can walk up to anyone on the street and they'll all tell you they think people should clean up after themselves. Trouble is... not everyone does. I know that, you (hopefully) know that, and I'm sure everyone here realizes that. Might as well tell people that the conservative response to murder is "don't kill people."

The debate is how to get people (and, more importantly, businesses and governments) to be responsible for their messes. The left would generally say regulation is what we need, while the right is more interested in free market alternatives. Personally, I'm inclined to say that we need a bit of both, but with more economic conservatism than regulation.

[Dr. Madd]

Poly: The Liberals would have us protecting genetic dead -ends like the Rhinoceros, an Animal that the fossil record proves cannot keep up. Low birth rate, low infant survival rate. They would have us protect the polar bear, an overspecialized large predator with a predilection for eating people, a definitely darwinian no-no. Just ask the Bengal Tiger. The Fossil Record states that the climate fluxes and changes, and therefore this "climate change" , if it exists, is part of the natural order of things. No true progressive would back such silliness, unless it was about power.


Anyone who goes about with "Global Warming" on his lips deserves to be boiled in fossil fuels, force fed a roasted spotted owl, and buried with a rainforest tree staked through his heart. Global Warming, Bah, Humbug!

[Aurelius]

I'm confused Madd, are you trying to say that these animals deserve to die because they can't adjust to climate (in this case destruction of habitat with the polar bear), or that because humans can kill them that they deserve to die?

What if I propose to you, since you don't believe in macro-evolution, that we're destroying God's work? He made the rhino and the tiger. Now your attitude, and others like you, is taking one of your Lord's creations and erasing it. Like Noah, we have the ability to preserve these creatures on our own global ark, yet you choose not too. Noah also tried to get others involved, and they stood by mocking him. Do you want to be pointing and laughing when God's wrath comes?

[WhiteAfricanAmerican]

The notion that the enviro-nazi's are somehow prophets of Gods wrath is hysterical.

You want to make a case for reasonable stewardship of the plant, I'm all for it. However, that which you and our political hemisphere
advocate stops just short of genocide in favour of the environment.

[GERALD]

GERALD, I can ask you a serious question? Are you a liberal trying to infiltrate this site by posing as a totally nonsensical consersative? You constantly contradict yourself, make innane points that not even the conservatives here bother backing up, and most of what you say, frankly, makes no use of logic... not even from a right-winged perspective. Either you are just incredibly nonsensical, or you're a troll trying to take the piss out of conservatives by hoping they'll latch on to your stupidity so you can laugh at them from your desktop.

Lemme take for instance your point about "cleaning up after yourself" being the conservative response to environmentalism. That statement is so broad and vague, it conveys nothing about your beliefs. You can walk up to anyone on the street and they'll all tell you they think people should clean up after themselves. Trouble is... not everyone does. I know that, you (hopefully) know that, and I'm sure everyone here realizes that. Might as well tell people that the conservative response to murder is "don't kill people."

The debate is how to get people (and, more importantly, businesses and governments) to be responsible for their messes. The left would generally say regulation is what we need, while the right is more interested in free market alternatives. Personally, I'm inclined to say that we need a bit of both, but with more economic conservatism than regulation.

"GERALD, I can ask you a serious question? "

I don't know Poly, can you???

I am sorry that you do not understand my posts.

Madd and WAA and Aurelius and many others do.

I have stated what I believe. By giving my view of things.
Hopefully with humor.

And hopefully in a thought provocing manner.
Must go now not sure when I can return.

[Topiary Lady]

Key word there seems to be "reasonable", WAA. There is nothing "reasonable" about the far left's view of environmental issues.

The right failed for far too long in allowing the loony left to capture the environment as their issue. Truth is, conservatives have an equal stake in having a clean and safe environment. What the right should have done is bring all of the hunters to the forefront to talk about proper conservation and the balance between man and beast, as well as the benefits of a healthy environment for both.

The left has radicalized the issue instead of appreciating the natural balance of things. We've got our farmers in the central valley of California who can no longer grow our food because the left has hijacked the water supply over concern for some little fish that is not even close to becoming endangered. Now up in the coastal town of Carlsbad we've got approval for a de-salination plant - something that will be of tremendous benefit for So. Cal. with our water shortage problems. But what do we have now? We've got the left trying to stop the project - again due to a VERY small amount of fish that may get caught up in the system. So again, we've got a problem with understanding BALANCE in the environment.

Just about every damned liberal that I know around here throws out their plastic bottles, cans etc while my husband and I are sure to have all of those things go to recycling. But the liberals all cry about global warming and pollution anyway. When I see the Al Gore's of the world go Vegan and stop living in mansions and flying around on their private jets, then maybe I'll take them a bit more seriously. But I resent the hell out of these asshats using environmental issues to line their pockets and gain control over our personal lives. If they really were concerned, then they would change their own behavior. But no, Gore's daughter gets married and he's got to have the rare Chilean Sea Bass served for the reception. Gore gets the specially flown in fish for his dinner, but the farmers of California's central valley can't have water flowing to the crops so the rest of us can have lettuce.

Hypocrites.

[Topiary Lady]

Poly, could it be that you are just not understanding Gerald's personality? I've known Gerald for many years and he is definitly not a liberal.